HinterWelt Fora

Hi everyone! Hi Bill!

It's been some time since I wrote something significant on this forum but I've been reading new posts ever since. Recently, I've toyed with V2 and I just started a small SF game with a modified version of it. (No, it's not Neb, sorry...) I could (and probably will) give you details about my version of V2 in another post, but I wanted to discuss the official view a something I found... problematic in this new incarnation of Iridium.

The new system being % roll-under only, it uses defense as a penalty to the weapon use skill roll. It came to my attention that, this way, someone with no weapon use skill whatsoever could not hit an opponent without a critical hit. Since unskilled % chance is 20 and an average person's defense should be about 20... zip! Of course, I'm aware that bonuses from attritutes could alter these chances, but I'm trying to figure out a really basic, average people fight.

The old system was really more permissive in this instance. Unskilled average vs. Unskilled average would have a 50% chance hiting his target, since the average def is 10.

So.. To sum up :

• V1 : 50% chance to hit when two Joe Average fight in a bar.
• V2 : 05% in the same situation.

That's quite a leap. Granted, the problem only arises when the situation is exactly as I describe it, because with skilled fighters, it works great. But this issue is bugging me nonetheless.

Any thoughts? Suggestions?

First off, glad to see a post from you again skynet!! Feedback is always welcome.

Second, this is a point some play testers have mentioned and work around. So, some of their ideas.

Unarmed Combat is different
Everyone receives one unarmed combat. Why? Because fighting is an instinct. This raises the unarmed combat to 40. It still only offers a 20% base but you get an additional attack.

My view. This has merit. In V1 it has precedent as Unarmed worked a bit different there as well. Normally, you receive a -8 for being unskilled in a weapon but with unarmed there was no mod since you did not use a weapon. So, in this way, we represent and even model the idea that a race or culture may receive free weapon skills. It is not outside reason to say humans receive one unarmed (or anyone) as a starting skill.

Defense does not apply
In unarmed combat, since it is close quarters and involves a lot of grappling, Defense does not apply. Blocking/parrying would and this would be the active defense.

My view. I am of mixed opinion on this. It is a logical answer but could unbalance combat. Why wouldn't you always take massive unarmed combat? I could see altering the UA tables so that UA does less damage. Possibly say UA does not affect armor but then you get into exception and I would prefer to avoid that. Still, I do think the idea has merit.

UA is a fixed chance
The skill gives you bonuses (ex. +5% per rank) to a base chance, say 40%. Defense is not factored in. More skills do not contribute as much to hit as they increase damage and number of att and maneuvers.

My view. I don't know about this. It combines 1 and 2 somewhat but I am not thrilled about the exception. I open to being convinced.

This great and the type of thing I would love to here more on.

Some other points related to defense from play testers expressed that it may be too tightly bound. That is to say, there is not enough range tot he Defense value. They found a lot of characters end up in the 40-45% range. Thoughts?

Bill

_________________
HinterWelt Enterprises
Bill Corrie
815-557-7365

Yeah, I thought about that. But why just unarmed? Everyone can hit someone with a baseball bat if they have to defend themselves... Where does it stop? Which weapon skill should benefit from this free rank rule?

That's a hard one you go there, Bill...

No argument. This is why I still have not made a call. The best I can offer is the difference would be everyone has hands and the argument would be there is natural instinct to use them.

Meh.

Bill

_________________
HinterWelt Enterprises
Bill Corrie
815-557-7365

To be honest, sometimes in a game design process you have to accept that it's all an abstraction and that if the mechanic will make it a better game then you can stretch "setting / real-world logic" to satisfy the concept that the game needs to be fun and playable. In my view, I would make the decision that feels best and solves the problem. Just my two-penneth.

_________________
Cheers,
BlackFalcon

There are plenty of people who can't fight. Fighting with ones fist is something that takes practice. I could easily see unarmed combat as a trained skill, and not something that everyone can do instinctually. The same thing applies to any weapon, including baseball bats. Yes, anyone can swing a fist or a bat, but to effectively bypass the foes defenses takes some skill. I think that any attack made without some skill should be very difficult. As for the "average joe" analogy, average joes in bar fights probably only land 5% of their blows effectively, it's mostly clutching, grabbing and wild punches that are not really effective. Just my two cents.

Here is the thing guys. I am stuck between what would be good for the game and what makes sense from a play point of view. To enumerate:
1. I agree with Scott that really, an effective fight in a bar between two unarmed guys will seldom result in serious injury. In this way, we would be free to model a "lots of swing, little connect" type model.

2. In terms of "fun play" it has been my experience that people aren't thrilled with the idea that "I take a swing at him" results in little or no hits. For this reason (nothing to do with setting or realism but with the fun of the system) I would consider the everyone gets a UA skill.

Now, I have been talking this over with Linda and she favors the "Everyone gets a UA skill" approach as it has precedent in our system. The problems I have with the other solutions can be summed up with "They are rules by exception". That is, they do not extend using the system but have rules that say "O.k, combat works this way except with Unarmed combat". I always feel this is clugey if you do not have a fundamental reason the action described by the system is different.

That said, I am open to suggestions, opinion and counter arguments.

Thanks guys. This is very helpful.

Bill

ETA: Also, I do not have a problem with unskilled attempts with weapons being hosed by Defense. It fits any use for the system I can think of. To me, people are seldom well served with a weapon and hitting someone with one is more difficult than people often paint. The exception might be firearms...still, I think to accurately shoot someone who is moving and such is not great if you have never picked up a gun. We should consider situational mods (like ranges) for weapons. Also, I think it is much easier now to say "If immobile or surprised, you do not apply Defense". Thus, it becomes a simple unskilled test. Possibly an automatic success if they are lying unconscious. Just some thoughts.

_________________
HinterWelt Enterprises
Bill Corrie
815-557-7365

I would go with the "fun" solution and give everyone an UA rank for free. Now, this does not necessarily means that it should be an exception. Some systems have everyman skills and such. So, you could dertermine a list of skills in which everyone from a certain culture or every character within a certain genre recieve a free rank in. It's one way to do it.

Another way could be to change the way you calculate defense. Normally, it's based on stats, with Dodge factored in if the character has it. If you want to parry, then you just roll your parry skill. Let's try another way. Your defense stat is based on Stat bonuses. Let's say, (AGL bonus + CON bonus) / 2. That's your base defense. So, Jo Average would get 0. Easy, UA skill default of 20% minus DEF of the average guy = 20%. This way, only very resistant or agile people would get a base defense of 5, 10 or more. Not much, I agree. But it works. THEN, you could factor in the dodge skill by adding Dodge / 3 to your defense. Just an idea.

I think I am missing something. This would seem to make Defense way too low for the other extreme, the guy who is very skilled in combat. So, look at the guy who has 5 skills in UA + an AGL bonus, possibly a 110% UA. A Defense of 0-30 is what the range would be. At the high end a person would have a 30 DEF (100 AGL & CON) and this would drop the attacker to 80. Hmm, you know, looking that over, it might work. I would like some way of advancing DEF through skills. I will think on it.

Thanks,
Bill

_________________
HinterWelt Enterprises
Bill Corrie
815-557-7365

Bill,

I'm going to throw in another little side show - and you'll have to forgive me because I don't have any reference material with me and it's been a while...

I'm with scottai in the sense that, if you've ever watched a bar fight - or been in one - it's just not that "heroic" or "cinematic." However, I also agree that "fun" for some folks would not be served well to emulate that experience - if you're only hitting rarely or at all, it could suck for them.

Well - I've got one word for you - Karma.

Whether I like it or not is irrelevant for this discussion. It does seem to me, however, to be a nice little "out" for folks who don't like how a "more realistic" unarmed combat might appear. In those cases, use Karma to lend a more cinematic feel to the bar fight.

Maybe it's just because you pointed me to that thread (on Karma) and this one in the same message...or maybe it's because I'm spitballing while eating lunch at my desk...so please forgive the impertinence...

Jim

You are missing the Dodge bonus. The high end would be something like 60 (someone with 100 AGL & CON and 90% Dodge). This would drop your 110% guy to 50, which is not bad. Just an idea. May not work since I didn't play tested it...

Well, it would be (AGL Bonus+CON Bonus+ Dodge)/3. If we assume maxes, then it looks like 30+30+110 = 170/3 = 57. This would mean a similar maxed UA would have 110% and adjust to 53. Not bad.

If we go back to mins, we get 0+0+0 = 0 Defense. If each have one skill in UA then 40% (AGL bonus would be 0). Still not bad. As soon as we start adding some skill in things mix a bit.

Say, 1 skill in UA + 20 for AGL = 60%. DEF of opponent is 1 skill in dodge, +10 for AGL and 0 for CON. That would be 50 + 10 + 0 = 60/3 = 20. Chance to hit, 40.

Looking at the extremes on each end you get a 110% UA (master UA vs unskilled dodger) and -17% (unskilled UA vs master dodger).

Concerns Linda has raised is if this will make sages and medics even harder to play? I don't think so but think in terms of someone who does not want to:
1. Dump their best stats into AGL and CON.
2. Need lots of skills elsewhere.
Still, even just going with Dodge, 3 skills will get you a 23 Dodge. Not great but not bad.

Thanks,
Bill

_________________
HinterWelt Enterprises
Bill Corrie
815-557-7365

You might like Karma more. If we link it to Codes it brings a whole new dynamic to the idea and puts it more in character which I like very much.

Do you favor the one skill of UA idea? It has precedent in the system. Linda is wram to it and I think it would balance well.

Thanks for commenting James.

Bill

_________________
HinterWelt Enterprises
Bill Corrie
815-557-7365

OK, Bill. You asked, I answer.

I like this one and the free UA skill. Neither one is an exception-based mechanic. They both work for me. Also, as James said, PCs will be using Karma. If the fight is important to them, they will not mind the cost. If it isn't important, they won't mind failure.

-clash

_________________
lash bowley * Flying Mice Games - an Imprint of Better Mousetrap Games
Flying Mice home page: http://jalan.flyingmice.com
StarCluster RPG * Sweet Chariot RPG * Book of Jalan RPG
Blood Games RPG * Cold Space RPG * FTL Now * In Harm's Way
Flying Mice Forum: http://forums.rpghost.com/forumdisplay.php?&forumid=154

Thanks Clash. I am leaning this way as well. My only concern is that the top end of Defense for humans will be 57 with other races possibly exceeding this. It should be as high as 63. This could drop us below your 50% hit rule. Talking about an average kind of non-fighter, you would have 2 skills in a weapon, + a DEX bonus of say 10. This would give you 70 making you need a 07 or less.

Kind of tough.

Bill

_________________
HinterWelt Enterprises
Bill Corrie
815-557-7365